I can remember the day where you could drive past a real estate sign outside a house for sale and the price was advertised on the sign.
Some recent comments have been brought to my attention that may require us to open our minds a little and think to the future and to the good of all of the industry, agents, buyers and sellers.
Maybe it is time that we had a law across the land that stipulates that any advertised property other than Auctions must carry a price. No offers over, no buyers range, no by negotiation. Why?
Straight away there is nothing hidden from the buyer, there is no chance for the minority of unscrupulous agents to take advantage of the myriad of laws throughout the country.
This will also give a boost for agents and their standing in the community. Agents should embrace any initiative that raises their profile. As far as sellers wanting privacy, well they do not have it anyway, we can all find out what any property sells for eventually.
It will make it easier for buyers looking for properties for sale and it will make the whole process a lot more transparent.
I know this might not be popular but maybe it is a road worth investigating.
46 Comments
Elizabeth
Good Afternoon,
Peter, I too remember the days when houses had the asking price on the sign board. I also remember the days of potential purchasers calling my office and asking me to send a fax of suitable listings too them. Thermal paper fax I am talking here, where the images would come out as black boxes. My goodness we were high-tech then, or so we thought.
On the whole your argument makes sense. Particularly when it comes to listing information and how it is marketed in the Print and online media. There does seem a need to establish a uniform approach, and also a measure to monitor adherence.
However, what am I to do with my vendors who do not want a price put against their property? These vendors are usually at the higher end of the market and do not want their neighbours knowing too much about their home. I even had one vendor who wanted me to put their property in the Wentworth Courier, but not include a price guide, nor photos of the interior of the house.
Perhaps in the case of Auctions, we need to state the reserve price and this is the number which is used in for listings marketing in print and online? But I have not met a vendor yet who wants to state their reserve price prior to Auction.
I am not sure I have any answers, as whilst it might be easy to legislate (as long as the institutes all worked together for once), it would be considerably difficult to monitor, as well as addressing the cultural change in the community.
It would be interesting to hear some thoughts from agents servicing the lower end of the market.
E
Peter
E
That is just it, if it is law it is law, they will not have a choice. Property is about the only thing that is for sale you cannot get a sale price on in Australia.
That is why we need unified laws. If they do not want to quote a price then they can Auction it.
Simple
Peter
As for Auctions, I think the future will see these relegated to only the most exclusive of homes
Peter
And if they do not want their neighbours knowing then they cannot sell their home, if neighbours are as snoopy as that they will find out anyway.
Adam
Elizabeth said…
“However, what am I to do with my vendors who do not want a price put against their property? These vendors are usually at the higher end of the market and do not want their neighbours knowing too much about their home. I even had one vendor who wanted me to put their property in the Wentworth Courier, but not include a price guide, nor photos of the interior of the house.”
I would say your sellers are not very motivated to sell, and that you or any other agent who works with them up until the point they become realistic is wasting their time. They are the sort of sellers, who end up with 4 agents, and only the last one who gets them when they REALLY want to move, sells the home for them (at probably a much lower price than they could have reached fresh to market).
As for auctions. Why would you auction a suburban home thats like any other in the street/suburb, that has recent sales applicable too it ? Oh hang on, perhaps we better ask the largest franchise group in QLD how they justify it ?
If a property is not completely unique, an agent is simply extorting money for their own advertising by suggesting an auction on a residential property at the moment.
Adam
A line I use when sellers discuss neighbours………..
“They won’t be your neighbours when you sell and eventually move”
Baz N
As a user of REA and domain, it constantly frustrates me that prices aren’t displayed by the agents.
THIS I am told is due to agents ‘hiding’ prices. I am sure REA and domain would confirm this, as I am told it frustrates them as well.
What I DO like is the fact ONE agent out there has had the guts to promote what a place is TRULY like – I noticed this on domain today:
http://blogs.domain.com.au/2007/04/first_the_bad_news_its_a_50000.html
How long before real estate agents start to realise that honesty truly is the best policy? I personally am sick of their made up rubbish descriptions, and their sly attempts to mislead purchases.
THEN they have the audacity to criticise the major portals – whom I understand are dirt cheap compared to print.
Real estate agents – your time is coming….how about you take notice of BUYERS in the market place. Because we are just about SICK of your hypocrisy.
Baz N
Sorry for the rant….but I have spent a cold windy Saturday looking at seven places today that DID NOT fit the real estate agents descriptions – FED UP!
Nick Buick
sometimes I read these articles and its like they just read my mind.
I totally agree with this idea. I can understand a vendor probably not wanting their price on the sign out the front (even I’d feel a little od about this as a vendor) – but in agent’s ads / window / online, etc… definatly.
Peter
Hi Baz and welcome to our blog. Please feel free and comment on any issues you think are in need of addressing. I will give you one hint. Try as much as you can to offer alternatives or suggestions to the current way of thinking. There is no doubt by your comments that you are frustrated by these issues. I get frustrated with certain aspects of the industry also, but I try my best to offer some alternatives or suggestions that can help improve the industry for all.
Adam
He did make a suggestion.
Take notice of what buyers say.
Most of them hate dealing with us……….. When I hear stories like his. I see why.
Elizabeth
Good morning,
Jumping into the fire… Purchasers represent 50% of an agents customer base in a transaction. If the system was in as dire straight as people suggest, then people like myself would not be getting the enquiry levels we are.
I do like Adam’s suggestion spiel, however in my market it seldom works. It is the case of horses for courses. My market extends from Double Bay to Rose Bay in Sydney. There is a prevalence of old money, which brings with it certain attitudes to privacy.
Adam in the lower end of the market I would think that your suggestions have a higher validity than they do to the old money high end of the market.
This being said, I would welcome a uniform approach to this issue. This approach would need to not only be legal or legislative, but also provide a considerable approach to the cultural approach of buying a property. Remember, what annoys purchasers when buying a property, greatly appeals to them when they are selling a property.
Can Adam, Nick, Baz (welcome to the blog)or anyone provide me with an example of an industry which is comparable to the Real Estate industry, which has more stringent guidelines for marketing?
If I take the initiative from Baz and I look at my Orange juice in front of me right now, the carton clearly states that it is Orange Juice. Yet when I look at the fine print, I see that the juice in question is made from Reconstituted Orange Juice, Apple Juice, Preservatives, Colourings and a few numbers which I have no idea what they represent.
So it really is not Orange Juice is it? Or is it?
It was marketed using the right colours, font size (my eyesight is not what it used to be), size of carton, and is supported by a successful TV campaign.
I would suggest that the agent in BazN’s example was following the same principals. Here the agent was clearly marketing the property to the kind of purchaser who would find this property attractive, and pay top dollar for it.
A great marketing strategy. Is it an example of honest marketing? Or more of an example of clearly understanding the target market?
Perception is everything.
E
Adam
“Can Adam, Nick, Baz (welcome to the blog)or anyone provide me with an example of an industry which is comparable to the Real Estate industry, which has more stringent guidelines for marketing?”
Elizabeth. For clarification, I deal in a lot of old money up here too, and market prestige waterfront homes.
I don’t believe that there is any ‘stringency’ in marketing in Real Estate. Have a look around the portals or the weekend paper and take a look at the liberties agents take with vendors properties. I’ll post an example.
Will this headline work in the owners best interest to get the absolute best possible price for the property (which is legislated by law in QLD) ?
http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bin/rsearch?a=o&id=103925443&f=0&p=10&t=res&ty=&fmt=&header=&c=70383071&s=qld&snf=rbs&tm=1175993587
I’d begin to bore you if I started linking the myriad of ‘Deceased Estate’ headlines I found in a 2 minute search.
You talk about reporting problem agents ? My day is far too short.
Peter Ricci
E, and all.
I would think that we are getting to a stage where we have the majority of the population aged between 24 and 36 where the first purchase of a property will be the most taxing on their income than anything else. We should be trying to make this purchase as transparent as possible for these people. There are enough stresses on average families across Australia just to get into the market without having further stresses by poor transparency and frustrating experiences.
I can tell from first hand experiences that the way agencies handle sales of properties from one to the next is ridiculously different and measures to make this a better experience have to be legislated – not talked about.
Elizabeth is right buyers and sellers behave differently and we expect different things from different sides of the fence.
As for stringent rules on the industry I would like to know what these are and how the average Joe in the street understands them.
Elizabeth
Good Morning,
After I posted I realised that I may not have clarified my position.
My question to you all was, to please provide me an example of an industry with stringent marketing and information laws. One which is comparable to the Real Estate Industry, and where the laws have been effective. (I was not implying that the Real Estate industry had such laws, which was how my statement earlier read!)
I am not trying to be ‘smart’, indeed I am asking for assistance.
No matter where I look I see individuals, companies and industry getting around the various laws.
Example: Ambulance Chasing Lawyers, it was legislated so that they could not advertise in the media. This worked for a short time, however we see new advertisements for Stacks Lawyers on TV.
Example: Drug companies, it was legislate that the drug companies could not advertise directly to consumers to drive uptake of their products. Yet we still see advertisements for weight loss, impotence, and full body scans in all forms of media.
Perhaps what we are really asking for is a self regulated code of conduct? With stringent rules?
Adam, criticising the listing you provided seems a bit premature. We do not know how long the property has been on the market, if indeed the statements made are true, or what the real motivation is. This being said, I am not surprised at such an advertisement from a member of the Professionals. This Cooperative makes the Franchisors look good.
E
Chris
I’m sure we’ve all been vendors before…so, is the answer MORE regulation or less?
In theory agents that do a poor job will eventually go out of business (well that’s what my economic lessons at UNI taught me). As a vendor I want to get the highest price possible and if this is achieved by not advertising the exact price, isn’t that up to me (and my trusted agent) to determine?
If not disclosing the price DIDN
snoop
Definitely an annoying policy.
Its really frustrating having to attempt to get thru to an agent just to find out the price.
Many agents I call are terrible and quick follow up.
It should be upfront.
Sure the Nobs in double bay are sensitive but its their stupidity,I mean you can go on domain and find out what properties are selling for in the same street.
I think its a tactic by agents who want to ensure they get calls which they then complain about getting and dont follow up on.
My vote Price on all properties.
Peter Ricci
National Law: Any property advertised for sale whether residential or commercial in any medium must have at all times a stated selling price. The price must be advertised on all marketing materials and must only contain the dollar symbol, apostrophes and numbers.
Exceptions: A Public Auction. All Auctions must contain Auction Date & Time along with a price guide in all marketing materials.
Ok, some fun. See who can get around this
Elizabeth
Ways around the National Law
1) State an extremely high price, which is well above the asking price – yet includes all the costs of advertising, commission, conveyancing ..etc…
2) Market the property at a price which appeals, yet does not include costs of advertising, commission, conveyancing ..etc…
Similar to what the airlines do when you travel overseas. They add on landing tax, fuel surcharge and the list goes on.
There is still an ambiguity in what exactly the
Nick Buick
I don’t think this needs to be legislated any more than it already is. How a vendor (or agent) chooses to advertise their property really is their own business.
The main place people really look for property these days is the net on major portals – so this really is the only place it needs to be addressed (excuse the pun).
If the major portals simply enforced one simple, mandatory, displayed (and searchable), price integer this problem would disappear overnight. Same way they force agents to include photography.
If one doesn’t wish to display photos, that
Nick Buick
Legislation is the hammer… the last thing you guys want is more legislation. Self-regulation is your answer to avoid frustrating your buyers and sellers :).
Glenn
Nick,
I totally disagree with your statement that the “main place people really look for property these days is the net on major portals”
The net in general is certainly high and somepeople just use the internet, but other forms of marketing work. Do you think agents would spend money on signboards, magazine, newspaper, tv and radio ads of they did not bring in enquiries.
Quick side issue :- Let me explain a little bit for those that want to jump in and say ads are funded by sellers. That is true in very few cases.. Many agents will tell you that they only do vendor paid advertising but benchmark studies in our group, plus those of other industry organisations show that very few “vendor paid” agencies are even close to being totally vendor paid. ie. They recover as much as they can from each owner but for numerous reasons (some owners dispute and will not pay, salespeople spend too much etc etc etc ) there is a huge shortfall between advertising expenditure and advertising recovered.
Back to the subject at hand :- The web portals are responsible for a lot of exposure, but generally a buyer has viewed a number of different media sources before they purchased. What comes first and what is most important in the buyers mind is very hard to figure out. We survey every purchaser and ask what media they used to find property with our office. Virtually all of them nominate multiple sources, and normally 3 or 4 sources.
Whilst it’s true that around 70% of purchasers advise that they used the internet, 70% also claim that they used the REIQ colour buyers guide, 60% claimed the magazine, 60% claimed the newspaper, 30% claimed signage. When you really look at the data you see that many of the sales are generated when a prospective purchaser views one property with us, and we either show them something else that they purchase or we follow them up later.
Then you have the traffic generated on the interent but from your own site. Many agencies get similiar enquries direct than what they receive through the portals because they rank well in google and other search engines.
I have never seen a successful agency that relies primarily on the web portals.. and as such leaving it up to them to fix this problem will never work.
Maybe we should just count all the ones who stipulate the internet as a source (whether it be the only source, or one of the sources of their enquiry) and promote the total $ figure of all of those sales on my website…. I think that might have been done before?
Nick Buick
A generalisation perhaps 🙂 – but if so – all the more reason for portals to do it. If purchasers can access more accurate info from portals than any other media, more customers (drastically more in my opinion) would exclusivly use portals.
Nick Buick
Don’t forget RealEstate.com.au gets 3,750,000 visitors per month – Domain would get slightly less (lets say for argument’s sake they get 2,750,000).
Six and a half million visitors per month using “Major Portals” (or roughly one third of the national population, every single month). Thats a larger audience than any newspaper, TV show, radio station, agent-database, direct-mail campaign, etc.
Surely this validates my statement:
Glenn
C’mon Nick, you dont actually believe thats how those stats work do you.. ???
23.2% of the Australian population are under the age of 16 and 5% are over the age of 74.
If it was really 6.5 million people per month as you suggested that means that around 50% of all possible people between 17 and 73 visited the site every single month….
One thing I have to say about you is that you never let logic stand in the way of a good story. Sometimes we get wrapped up in our own little world that we project our experiences out on the rest of the world (or at least half of it in your example). I will leave it to somebody else to point out the bleeding obvious problems with your assumptions.. let alone if you have worked on the correct figures in the first place.. Actually, now that I think a bit more about it, I think it is virtually impossible to get anything beyond a rough roundabout guestimate in the first place but thats a whole other arguement relating to which statistics company each portal uses (becuase they disagree with each other on many things, amazingly always in favour of the company paying the bills), the accuracy and protocols used by each and how you intend to cross reference them to give you a combined picture.
Speaking of analysing stats.. DAVE PLATTER… you still have not got me those statistics I asked for… you did say you could get them. As I have said before, if you cant get them just say so… but please dont just ignore the situation and hope I will forget about it. You made some pretty big claims, so give us the full information and not the REA marketing departments sanitised statistics so we can see if you are right.
Robert Simeon
Well as a business owner and I receive every online enquiry which I then pass on to every respective salesperson / property manager March was a dissapointing property portal month.
With many agents reporting March as being a record month (our second highest) it was rentals that dominated enquiries. This is entirely due to a rental crisis. Availability in Sydney has fallen to a record low of 1.2%. The situation in the inner city is even more critical, where the vacancy rate has dropped to just 1.1%.
Having said that we did sell a property for $3.750 million to a couple from the United Kingdom who searched it through Domain. Although the current pattern is that online enquiries are dominating with rentals, followed by apartments and then houses.
For argument sake I will do a breakdown of of property portal results and post tomorrow.
Nick Buick
I didn’t suggest it Glen. I simply stated the factual statistics publicly available from nelsen’s netratings.
If the facts dispute your personal opinion – I appoligise for that – but it seems like you’re the one not letting fact stand in the way of a good story.
Glenn
Nick,
Really mate… post your opinions all you want and I am fine with that, but quote your own stats like that and expect them to be challenged, especially when they are so wrongly used as you did.. Let me explain..
You did more than simply restating the Neilsens netratings and their statistics Nick, you made your own statistic up when you COMBINED the figures and clearly and unambiguously stated “Six and a half million visitors per month using
Glenn
Robert,
We seem to be experiencing it a little different than what you are seeing. I don’t know about any other area, but South East Queensland has had a fantastic sales run for the past few months. Actually, better than fantastic. A friend just got back a few hours ago from attending a Brisbane zone meeting for our group and apparently they were all having a similar time to us on the Gold Coast.
Rentals are on the increase and Rental vacancies are virtually non existant but we are nowhere near the crisis point that seems to be appearing on the news regarding Sydney..
The times are a changing!! thats what makes this industry interesting dont you think?
Peter Ricci
5,342,206 is the total for January of unique browsers between all major sites (Nielson) . But even this does not tell the whole story. Many people have dynamic IP addresses which change often. I would about halve this figure.
nick
C`mon RealEstate.com.au is the 11th most popular site in the country (Alexa.com.au – 2007). Thats after google, microsoft, myspace, youtube, ebay, etc.
I hate to admit it and obviously, so do you, But RealEstate.com.au *is* the Daddy Mac. If you’re not on it – you don’t count.
Now if you’ll excuse me I have a plain to catch – see you guys in a month.
Robert Simeon
Glenn,
Inner Sydney markets have seen over the last ten years an average of 2.6 per cent vacancy factor. Today, it is well on the way to falling below 1.00 per cent which then takes us to a vacancy level never before experienced. Yes, we have investors returning however, on the other side of the coin they are also selling up and taking advantage of the new superannuation incentive. This will see available rental properties continue to fall where rents will continue to sky rocket based on supply V demand.
Wages simply can’t compete against reducing vacancy rates. We are not that far off from having no vacancies which will then see rental markets in total chaos and crisis.
To put this in further perspective the average agency with say 400 properties on their rent roll previously had between 8 to 12 per cent vacant. Today – this now sits between 1 and 2 per cent.
Federal and state governments are using climate change and water as a great distraction.
Adam
We had the same situation in the mid 90’s with 20-30 people attending OFI’s for rentals on the North Shore of Sydney. Investors got back into property and the boom happened. Its cyclic Robert, always has been. Your 25 years of experience should have told you that ?
There will be a rental crisis until property catches up again. Last time I looked in Sydney there were still properties being built ? Maybe not at the frantic rates they were a few years ago, but you can still buy apartments on the ferry route at Homebush Bay with water views at reasonable prices AND achieve good rental returns. Perhaps some of your tennants may look out that way ?
Robert Simeon
Adam,
With respect the Sydney rental market has never ever before seen such low vacancy rates. In the mid 90’s rates varied between 2.5 – 3.00 per cent. Today we are looking at less than 1.00 per cent !!
As for Homebush Bay – many households are finding themselves in what is called
Glenn
Peter,
Thanks for those numbers. They are still a little higher than I would have thought… but make better sense than Nick’s add em up method.
You claim that Dynamic IP’s would effect this. Why? Using IP addresses to track unique browsers is very old school and is normally used only when you have simple web logs. The biggest problem with this (other than false unique browsers due to dynamic ips) is boosted visitor counts because all the spiders and robot cralwers are added into the stats.
I thought Netratings works by injected code into the pages in addition to cookies so that Visitor counts are fairly accurate and so are Unique Browsers.
But Netratings accuracy has been called into question a bit .. Firstly over the fact that many users delete cookies regularly for various reasons from security to hiding the porn sites that hubby watched whilst the wife slept. Here is one site that was quoting Neilsens own data on the problem http://publications.mediapost.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=28883
Then you have the old argument that I alluded to previously and that was that it always appears that the customers who pay always seem to be ranked better .. Here is a recent article of somebody complaining about that issue.. http://www.smarthousenews.com.au/?Article=/_Home Page Feature/T3C7X6E4 As you might have guessed.. they had not paid so they did not rank well..
I personally would trust a Netratings ranking (dont know about their actual unique visitor numbers though) over say Hitwise. I have seen so much abuse of hitwise figures especially in the real estate section.
One Portal we caught injected encrypted javascript into the page of everyone of their clients (and we are talking hundreds of clients) so that the browser would open the homepage of their own real estate portal in a 1 pixel by 1 pixel iframe so effectively every visit one of their clients websites had also generated a visit to their property portal. That company’s tactics fooled Hitwise for ages as they ranked extremely well, and they in turn fooled many clients into believing their trumped up traffic was genuine. When we caught them on it, they then removed the offending code from the pages and inserted into a standard Microsoft javascript that each page called (they were all created in Frontpage so used frontpage js files to display menus, rollovers etc). Clearly they thought that we would have noticed it deleted from the html and just dropped it but the method we found that detected it also showed that it was still loading and therefore we tracked it to the edited JS file pretty quickly..
God knows how long they got away with it, but once we had sniffed out there was a problem we just had to prove it. It was pointed out to hitwise who initially just fobbed it off as they did not want to admit that it happened and they good tricked but I think they eventually took action.
This is obviously wrong in so many ways and on so many levels but just shows how easy these companies are to trick.
Danny
Nick had a a “plain” to catch … Robert did you mean “trane crash”?
Robert Simeon
Danny,
Well I am about to jump into bed with Pain (Plane) Jane 😉
Dave Platter
(I work at realestate.com.au/the REA Group.)
Glenn, sorry, tell me again what stats you need?
dave
Peter Ricci
Glenn, nice post. I think you are right. I would trust Netratings for maybe the first 5 real estate sites in Australia and that is it. Paying to supply them with data (that they then make money on) is simply a ridiculous model and one which is ripe for a takeover by something smarter and fairer. As an example there are less than 20 real estate sites measured out of over 5000 and so to me that is not an indication of what is happening in the market. No matter what you do, someone will try and cheat the system, but if they cheat they should be booted, but if you are making money from them it seems in this day and age a harder thing to do when everything always seems to be about money.
Again the best way to judge is by the results these sites bring in.
Glenn
Dave,
Here is the original request
Glenn
Dave
Still waiting for those stats. You have not forgotten again have you? With me asking all the time and everything…
I think it has been over a month (well if feels like it anyway and I am too slack to go back in the archives and check) now since you originally said you would be able to get them for us.
Don’t you have enough pull there to get the stats or is it something else? Don’t they stack up to support your claims?
If you cant get them or don’t want to release them, just say so.
Cheers
Glenn
Robert Simeon
Glenn,
I have copied and pasted your message to Dave on his email. Maybe REA have placed a media ban on business2. Collectively they have not contributed to any blogs for quite some time.
I also wonder if the “You know 3.700 million visitors,” spruiker Tom. S is holding or selling ?
He too has been quiet !! However, I would suggest Tom is an employee of REA 🙂
Tom S
I’m buying.
Peter Ricci
Very funny Tom!
As for REA and Domain, I do not think they have too many concerns in the short terms, but it will be interesting to see how they react over time when this gets launched!
I noticed the Rural Press deal seems like a done thing and this will boost Fairfax and Domain immeasurably.
Dave Platter
(I work at the REA Group/realestate.com.au)
Thanks Robert for the email. I’ve not had as much time to dedicate to this forum lately, much to my unhappiness! And I might not have been aware of Glenn’s latest comments without Robert’s help.
Peter, please know that it’s not out of any lack of respect or appreciation for your excellent writing and this valuable forum you make available. It’s just that I’m taking on a few new responsibilities at work (no more money!)
So Glenn, I apologize. I know I’m remiss. I’m not sure I can get the stats, and in fact, I’m not even sure anymore what stats we’re talking about.
Also, note that if I ever am unresponsive, it’s probably because I haven’t had a chance to get onto the blog lately. A quick email to dplatter at realestate dot com dot au should be enough to fix the situation.
Thanks, all!
dave
Peter Ricci
Hi Dave
No problems here, good to see you back!